Interoperability Minutes 2006-07-19

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Contents

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Attendees

  1. "Adam Peller" <apeller@us.ibm.com>
  2. "Alex Russell" <alex@dojotoolkit.org>
  3. "Bjoern Mueller" <Bjoern.Mueller@softwareag.com>
  4. "Chris Matthews" <cmatthews@elinkbiz.com>
  5. "Eddie O'Neil" <ekoneil@bea.com>
  6. "James Douma" <jdouma@ebusinessapps.com>
  7. "John Crupi" <john.crupi@jackbe.com>
  8. "Jon Ferraiolo" <jferrai@us.ibm.com>
  9. "Lindsey Simon" <lsimon@finetooth.com>
  10. "Kevin Hakman" <khakman@tibco.com>
  11. "Phil Berkland" <berkland@us.ibm.com>
  12. "Rüdiger Herrmann" <rherrmann@innoopract.de> 
Steve Adams - curl
greg murray / sun
chris (oracle?)
james margaris / nexaweb


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Absent

  1. "Arno Puder" <arno@puder.org>
  2. "Chris Matthews" <cmatthews@elinkbiz.com>
  3. "Chris Schalk" <chris.schalk@oracle.com>
  4. "Coach Wei" <coach@nexaweb.com>
  5. "David Frankel" <david.frankel@sap.com>
  6. "David Temkin" <temkin@laszlosystems.com>
  7. "Eric Nguyen" <ericn@mercedsystems.com>
  8. "Gary Horen" <ghoren@bea.com>
  9. "Javier Gallego" <Javier.Gallego@softwareag.com>
  10. "Jeremy Chone" <jchone@adobe.com>
  11. "John Janetos" <jjanetos@laszlosystems.com>
  12. "Ken Fyten" <ken.fyten@icesoft.com>
  13. "Kingsley (Uyi) Idehen" <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
  14. "Luke Birdeau" <lbirdeau@tibco.com>
  15. "Michael Peachey" <mpeachey@tibco.com>
  16. "Ross Dargahi" <ross.dargahi@zimbra.com>
  17. "Rüdiger Herrmann" <rherrmann@innoopract.de>
  18. "Ted Thibodeau Jr" <tthibodeau@openlinksw.com>
  19. "William Shulman" <will@mercedsystems.com>
  20. "James Douma" <jdouma@ebusinessapps.com>
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Agenda

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Update on what happened at last week's Markup committee meeting

Full minutes: http://www.openajaxalliance.org/member/wiki/index.php/Markup_Minutes_2006-07-13

Proposals discussed: http://www.openajaxalliance.org/member/wiki/index.php/Markup_Mixing_Nexaweb_IBM_20060712

Kevin: likes existing HTML markup, e.g. divs. Problems: div is for rendering most of the time, but there are times markup ought to describe data and not render.

Jon: e.g. XForms, which puts model info in the HTML HEAD

James/nexaweb: part of the plan

Jon: ISSUE: whether the page scan goes through the body only or the head plus the body.

Jon: Can you get into the HEAD?

Alex: yes

Jon: client model: dual DOM model/single DOM client side. Most popular OSS appears to be single DOM. Toolkit parses and transforms the DOM.

Jon: Dual DOM approach (XAP/XAL): separate XML tree client-side. From that model, HTML view is generated

Jon: Third used by IceSoft- sep XML DOM for model, reflected and kept up to date on the server. IceSoft uses this to integrate with JSF

Jon: Dual DOM approach makes it easier to embed ns prefix data and communication objects, leveraging CSS3 to skip rendering, etc. Single DOM approach you run into IE bugs

James/nexaweb: backbase has embedded BXML starts in browser dom namespaced. how?

Jon: References Dojo's parser

James/ebiz: uses xml in html and doesn't have a problem with the namespace prefix. run into more problems on mozilla than on ie

James/nexaweb: can we get samples to play with?

Jon: suggests a website, offers to post on wiki

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Review document with some ideas on the OpenAjax Hub

http://www.openajaxalliance.org/member/wiki/index.php/OpenAjaxHub_Ideas_20060719

Jon: Terminology. Call them libraries or toolkits? Toolkit might imply server tools.

Phil: suggests defining toolkit

?: Dojo consists of JS libraries, but also tooling around the library, like compression tool

Jon: AJAX Markup Processing term. Transform on a div.

Jon: Goes through loading mechanism

James/nexaweb: Alex's event hub had pub/sub for onload. Is this different?

Jon: Just for discussion. Had same question.

Jon: Do not install your own load event listener, instead register with hub, use callback

Jon: ...Library loading/unloading...

Jon HTML4+XHTML forward-looking for conformance, include xmlns definition on root, if used

James/ebiz: Who is doing XHTML development for AJAX? Run into a lot of trouble.

Kevin: Forthcoming GI build will render XHTML to the browser (for SVG in FF) Turned out to not be necessary.

Jon: goes through some XHTML problems: content-type, well-formed, etc. Most browsers do not do a good job rendering XHTML, but there are ways around this

Alex: nearly impossible to get backwards compatibility, e.g. same CSS no longer applied properly, referencing custom XML tags - containment broke

Alex: bugs or lack of support? cannot find documentation on how this ought to work.

Alex: naming in APIs will not work as specified. Underscore or CamelCase, but dashes won't work.

James/nexaweb: metasignatures is fine, but actual names of root objects should be discussed, perhaps offline

James/nexaweb: need a process to discuss and track changes

Jon: whoever volunteers can set naming standards proposal, then everyone else can complain

Jon: That would be James, deriving from Alex's original work

Jon: libid unique id

Adam: asks if libid is unique to page or global

Jon: defacto globally unique, to match xml namespace if used

Jon: is unload used?

Alex: yes

Alex: Why not publish across topics instead of registering callback for load? Just use generic event framework

Jon: try to make it work with generic event system, no special API for load

Jon: ...JS collisions

Alex: approach is very large, enumerating all objects which might be modified. for example, google xpath everything is top-level

Adam: tool could generate this?

Alex: ok for top-level, harder for prototype. if $F were a class or prototype, do we then enumerate through instances?

Jon: no. just top-level object.

?: would help find all the toString, trim functions

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Issues 

whether the page scan goes through the body only or the head plus the body.
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Next steps

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Discussion

Jon: Post something on OpenAjax website in the next few weeks to show technical progress. Need consensus. How rough can it be?

?: Perhaps start with collision detection

Jon: Technical page with issues we're addressing with short summaries.

?: Use-cases could be useful if made public

Jon: Derivatives of OpenAjaxHub Ideas doc with summary of what we're working towards, progress

?: State of the world doc?

Jon: Looking for volunteers on APIs or JS

James/nexaweb: could just start with oaa.js and go from there. Proposal is very close. Sample page would be trivial, show working code.

James/nexaweb: get feedback from those developing toolkits, on delegation mechanism

Jon: continue on, and it's everyone's responsibility to speak up

Jon: markup registration -> markup committee

Jon: Event registration big topic for next week's meeting

Jon: encourage feedback via wiki

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ACTIONS

Jon will prepare doc for next meeting

All: Give feedback to James on his document

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