From rhys at volantis.com Fri Jul 6 04:02:15 2007 From: rhys at volantis.com (Rhys Lewis) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 04:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force Message-ID: <000b01c7bfbd$60c3d740$921e140a@volantisuk> Hello everyone, The time has come to organise a kick-off meeting for the Mobile task force. I'd like to try and find a suitable time and date this month to hold the call. We'll issue a more formal agenda soon, but the main purpose of the meeting is to gather views from the participants about the objectives and expected outcomes from the task force. Looking at other activities that are going on within or related to the OOA, and my availablility, the following dates and times look feasible: Monday July 23rd 8am Pacific Monday July 30th 8am Pacific Tuesday July 31st 9am Pacific Wednesday August 1st 8am Pacific Thursday August 2nd 8am Pacific Friday August 3rd 8am or 9am Pacific Could you let me know your preferences for the time and date for this call, preferably by Thursday July 12th? I expect it to last 1 hour. Very best wishes Rhys Lewis, co-chair, OOA Mobile Taskforce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070706/0cb67bdf/attachment.html From louenas.hamdi at sap.com Fri Jul 6 05:50:17 2007 From: louenas.hamdi at sap.com (Hamdi, Louenas) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 08:50:17 -0400 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force In-Reply-To: <000b01c7bfbd$60c3d740$921e140a@volantisuk> Message-ID: <6644EC646571D04DA95850E3D803903A0370A5AF@usphle12.phl.sap.corp> Hi Rhys, Here is my preference below in red. Cheers, Louenas ________________________________ From: mobile-bounces at openajax.org [mailto:mobile-bounces at openajax.org] On Behalf Of Rhys Lewis Sent: Friday, Jul 06, 2007 7:02 AM To: mobile at openajax.org Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force Hello everyone, The time has come to organise a kick-off meeting for the Mobile task force. I'd like to try and find a suitable time and date this month to hold the call. We'll issue a more formal agenda soon, but the main purpose of the meeting is to gather views from the participants about the objectives and expected outcomes from the task force. Looking at other activities that are going on within or related to the OOA, and my availablility, the following dates and times look feasible: Monday July 23rd 8am Pacific Monday July 30th 8am Pacific Tuesday July 31st 9am Pacific Wednesday August 1st 8am Pacific Thursday August 2nd 8am Pacific Friday August 3rd 8am or 9am Pacific Could you let me know your preferences for the time and date for this call, preferably by Thursday July 12th? I expect it to last 1 hour. Very best wishes Rhys Lewis, co-chair, OOA Mobile Taskforce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070706/936fe78f/attachment.html From chaals at opera.com Sat Jul 7 20:44:14 2007 From: chaals at opera.com (Charles McCathieNevile) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:44:14 -0400 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force In-Reply-To: <6644EC646571D04DA95850E3D803903A0370A5AF@usphle12.phl.sap.corp> References: <6644EC646571D04DA95850E3D803903A0370A5AF@usphle12.phl.sap.corp> Message-ID: On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:50:17 -0400, Hamdi, Louenas wrote: > Hi Rhys, > Here is my preference below in red. (For those reading in plain text that is 1 August). All dates are the same for me... Cheers Chaals > ________________________________ > > From: mobile-bounces at openajax.org [mailto:mobile-bounces at openajax.org] > On Behalf Of Rhys Lewis > Sent: Friday, Jul 06, 2007 7:02 AM > To: mobile at openajax.org > Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force > > > Hello everyone, > The time has come to organise a kick-off meeting for the Mobile task > force. I'd like to try and find a suitable time and date this month to > hold the call. > We'll issue a more formal agenda soon, but the main purpose of the > meeting is to gather views from the participants about the objectives > and expected outcomes from the task force. > Looking at other activities that are going on within or related to the > OOA, and my availablility, the following dates and times look feasible: > Monday July 23rd 8am Pacific > Monday July 30th 8am Pacific > Tuesday July 31st 9am Pacific > Wednesday August 1st 8am Pacific > Thursday August 2nd 8am Pacific > Friday August 3rd 8am or 9am Pacific > Could you let me know your preferences for the time and date for this > call, preferably by Thursday July 12th? I expect it to last 1 hour. > Very best wishes > Rhys Lewis, co-chair, OOA Mobile Taskforce > -- Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group hablo espa?ol - je parle fran?ais - jeg l?rer norsk chaals at opera.com Catch up: Speed Dial http://opera.com From rotan.hanrahan at mobileaware.com Mon Jul 9 02:00:01 2007 From: rotan.hanrahan at mobileaware.com (Rotan Hanrahan) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:00:01 +0100 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force In-Reply-To: <000b01c7bfbd$60c3d740$921e140a@volantisuk> References: <000b01c7bfbd$60c3d740$921e140a@volantisuk> Message-ID: Tuesday is impossible, Friday is very difficult, and the rest are fine for me. ---Rotan. From: mobile-bounces at openajax.org [mailto:mobile-bounces at openajax.org] On Behalf Of Rhys Lewis Sent: 06 July 2007 12:02 To: mobile at openajax.org Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force Hello everyone, The time has come to organise a kick-off meeting for the Mobile task force. I'd like to try and find a suitable time and date this month to hold the call. We'll issue a more formal agenda soon, but the main purpose of the meeting is to gather views from the participants about the objectives and expected outcomes from the task force. Looking at other activities that are going on within or related to the OOA, and my availablility, the following dates and times look feasible: Monday July 23rd 8am Pacific Monday July 30th 8am Pacific Tuesday July 31st 9am Pacific Wednesday August 1st 8am Pacific Thursday August 2nd 8am Pacific Friday August 3rd 8am or 9am Pacific Could you let me know your preferences for the time and date for this call, preferably by Thursday July 12th? I expect it to last 1 hour. Very best wishes Rhys Lewis, co-chair, OOA Mobile Taskforce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070709/534482be/attachment.html From chaals at opera.com Mon Jul 9 08:34:25 2007 From: chaals at opera.com (Charles McCathieNevile) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:34:25 -0400 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force In-Reply-To: References: <000b01c7bfbd$60c3d740$921e140a@volantisuk> Message-ID: On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 05:00:01 -0400, Rotan Hanrahan wrote: > Tuesday is impossible, Friday is very difficult, and the rest are fine > for me. > > ---Rotan. Monday 23rd and Friday 3rd are now difficult for me. Cheers Chaals > Looking at other activities that are going on within or related to the > OOA, and my availablility, the following dates and times look feasible: > > > Monday July 23rd 8am Pacific > > Monday July 30th 8am Pacific > > Tuesday July 31st 9am Pacific > > Wednesday August 1st 8am Pacific > > Thursday August 2nd 8am Pacific > > Friday August 3rd 8am or 9am Pacific > > > > Could you let me know your preferences for the time and date for this > call, preferably by Thursday July 12th? I expect it to last 1 hour. > > > Very best wishes > > > Rhys Lewis, co-chair, OOA Mobile Taskforce > > > -- Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group hablo espa?ol - je parle fran?ais - jeg l?rer norsk chaals at opera.com Catch up: Speed Dial http://opera.com From rhys at volantis.com Fri Jul 13 00:49:46 2007 From: rhys at volantis.com (Rhys Lewis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force - Agenda and Time In-Reply-To: <001001c7bfbd$6ee516e0$921e140a@volantisuk> References: <001001c7bfbd$6ee516e0$921e140a@volantisuk> Message-ID: <00a101c7c522$ac3ce3a0$921e140a@volantisuk> Hello everyone, Following the mini survey of people's availability, this email announces the kick-off phone call for the Mobile Ajax Task Force. Please respond to this mail to indicate that you will attend. Call Details: ============= Wednesday August 1st, 8:00 AM Pacific Time; 11:00 AM Eastern Time; 4:00 PM London; 5:00 PM Paris * Toll Free: 1-877-422-0052 * Toll: 1-314-655-1417 * Participant Pin access code: 142380 * IRC channel: irc.freenode.net, #oaa-mobile Proposed Agenda: =============== Review - Jon ------------ - Purpose of the OOA - Mobile Ajax Discussions in OOA to Date Things the Mobile Taskforce Might Pursue - Rhys ----------------------------------------------- - Initial Discussion about the list of mobile-related activites that OOA might pursue Might include: - White paper - written in collaboration with the OOA marketing group - characterise the state of the support for Ajax on mobile today - considerations for developers thinking of using mobile Ajax today - in particular differences in UI capabilities on mobile devices - supporting devices that are not top-end mobiles - Survey of support for Ajax in the mobile world - Request information from OOA members - Suitable process - Widgets - Device APIs that might be used by Ajax applications - for example, W3C DCCI Roundtable - All ---------------- - Attendee introductions and expressions of interest in activities - Items just discussed and/or additional ideas Any other business? ------------------- Wrap up ------- Very best wishes Rhys Lewis, co-chair, OOA Mobile Taskforce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070713/030ec7b3/attachment.html From rotan.hanrahan at mobileaware.com Fri Jul 13 01:59:30 2007 From: rotan.hanrahan at mobileaware.com (Rotan Hanrahan) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:59:30 +0100 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force -Agenda and Time In-Reply-To: <00a101c7c522$ac3ce3a0$921e140a@volantisuk> References: <001001c7bfbd$6ee516e0$921e140a@volantisuk> <00a101c7c522$ac3ce3a0$921e140a@volantisuk> Message-ID: OK by me. ---Rotan From: mobile-bounces at openajax.org [mailto:mobile-bounces at openajax.org] On Behalf Of Rhys Lewis Sent: 13 July 2007 08:50 To: mobile at openajax.org Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force -Agenda and Time Hello everyone, Following the mini survey of people's availability, this email announces the kick-off phone call for the Mobile Ajax Task Force. Please respond to this mail to indicate that you will attend. Call Details: ============= Wednesday August 1st, 8:00 AM Pacific Time; 11:00 AM Eastern Time; 4:00 PM London; 5:00 PM Paris * Toll Free: 1-877-422-0052 * Toll: 1-314-655-1417 * Participant Pin access code: 142380 * IRC channel: irc.freenode.net, #oaa-mobile Proposed Agenda: =============== Review - Jon ------------ - Purpose of the OOA - Mobile Ajax Discussions in OOA to Date Things the Mobile Taskforce Might Pursue - Rhys ----------------------------------------------- - Initial Discussion about the list of mobile-related activites that OOA might pursue Might include: - White paper - written in collaboration with the OOA marketing group - characterise the state of the support for Ajax on mobile today - considerations for developers thinking of using mobile Ajax today - in particular differences in UI capabilities on mobile devices - supporting devices that are not top-end mobiles - Survey of support for Ajax in the mobile world - Request information from OOA members - Suitable process - Widgets - Device APIs that might be used by Ajax applications - for example, W3C DCCI Roundtable - All ---------------- - Attendee introductions and expressions of interest in activities - Items just discussed and/or additional ideas Any other business? ------------------- Wrap up ------- Very best wishes Rhys Lewis, co-chair, OOA Mobile Taskforce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070713/bf65d2ac/attachment.html From chaals at opera.com Wed Jul 18 23:05:06 2007 From: chaals at opera.com (Charles McCathieNevile) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:05:06 +0100 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force -Agenda and Time In-Reply-To: References: <001001c7bfbd$6ee516e0$921e140a@volantisuk> <00a101c7c522$ac3ce3a0$921e140a@volantisuk> Message-ID: Works for me. cheers Chaals On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:59:30 +0100, Rotan Hanrahan wrote: > OK by me. > > ---Rotan > > > From: mobile-bounces at openajax.org [mailto:mobile-bounces at openajax.org] > On Behalf Of Rhys Lewis > Sent: 13 July 2007 08:50 > To: mobile at openajax.org > Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force > -Agenda and Time > > > Hello everyone, > > > Following the mini survey of people's availability, this email announces > the kick-off phone call for the Mobile Ajax Task Force. > > > Please respond to this mail to indicate that you will attend. > > > Call Details: > ============= > Wednesday August 1st, 8:00 AM Pacific Time; 11:00 AM Eastern Time; 4:00 > PM London; 5:00 PM Paris > > > * Toll Free: 1-877-422-0052 > * Toll: 1-314-655-1417 > * Participant Pin access code: 142380 > * IRC channel: irc.freenode.net, #oaa-mobile > > > Proposed Agenda: > =============== > > > Review - Jon > ------------ > - Purpose of the OOA > - Mobile Ajax Discussions in OOA to Date > > > Things the Mobile Taskforce Might Pursue - Rhys > ----------------------------------------------- > - Initial Discussion about the list of mobile-related activites that OOA > might pursue > Might include: > > > - White paper > - written in collaboration with the OOA marketing group > - characterise the state of the support for Ajax on mobile today > - considerations for developers thinking of using mobile Ajax today > - in particular differences in UI capabilities on mobile devices > - supporting devices that are not top-end mobiles > > > - Survey of support for Ajax in the mobile world > - Request information from OOA members > - Suitable process > > > - Widgets > > > - Device APIs that might be used by Ajax applications > - for example, W3C DCCI > > > Roundtable - All > ---------------- > - Attendee introductions and expressions of interest in activities > - Items just discussed and/or additional ideas > > > Any other business? > ------------------- > > > Wrap up > ------- > > > > Very best wishes > > > Rhys Lewis, co-chair, OOA Mobile Taskforce > > > -- Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group hablo espa?ol - je parle fran?ais - jeg l?rer norsk chaals at opera.com Catch up: Speed Dial http://opera.com From jferrai at us.ibm.com Tue Jul 31 16:14:00 2007 From: jferrai at us.ibm.com (Jon Ferraiolo) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:14:00 -0700 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Reminder: Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force Message-ID: Just a reminder that we have the Mobile Ajax Task Force kick-off meeting tomorrow. Jon ----- Forwarded by Jon Ferraiolo/Menlo Park/IBM on 07/31/2007 04:13 PM ----- "Rhys Lewis" To 07/13/2007 12:49 cc AM Jon Ferraiolo/Menlo Park/IBM at IBMUS Subject Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile Task Force - Agenda and Time Hello everyone, Following the mini survey of people's availability, this email announces the kick-off phone call for the Mobile Ajax Task Force. Please respond to this mail to indicate that you will attend. Call Details: ============= Wednesday August 1st, 8:00 AM Pacific Time; 11:00 AM Eastern Time; 4:00 PM London; 5:00 PM Paris * Toll Free: 1-877-422-0052 * Toll: 1-314-655-1417 * Participant Pin access code: 142380 * IRC channel: irc.freenode.net, #oaa-mobile Proposed Agenda: =============== Review - Jon ------------ - Purpose of the OOA - Mobile Ajax Discussions in OOA to Date Things the Mobile Taskforce Might Pursue - Rhys ----------------------------------------------- - Initial Discussion about the list of mobile-related activites that OOA might pursue Might include: - White paper - written in collaboration with the OOA marketing group - characterise the state of the support for Ajax on mobile today - considerations for developers thinking of using mobile Ajax today - in particular differences in UI capabilities on mobile devices - supporting devices that are not top-end mobiles - Survey of support for Ajax in the mobile world - Request information from OOA members - Suitable process - Widgets - Device APIs that might be used by Ajax applications - for example, W3C DCCI Roundtable - All ---------------- - Attendee introductions and expressions of interest in activities - Items just discussed and/or additional ideas Any other business? ------------------- Wrap up ------- Very best wishes Rhys Lewis, co-chair, OOA Mobile Taskforce -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: ecblank.gif Type: image/gif Size: 45 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070731/c4e34810/attachment-0001.gif From rotan.hanrahan at mobileaware.com Wed Aug 1 09:06:41 2007 From: rotan.hanrahan at mobileaware.com (Rotan Hanrahan) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 17:06:41 +0100 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Reminder: Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile TaskForce In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to note that I used http://java.freenode.net/ as an interface to the IRC channel on today's call, on account of my firewall preventing me using my normal IRC client. Might be useful for future meetings. Unfortunately I can't see how to copy/paste the transcript. ---Rotan. [...] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070801/feb7339a/attachment.html From gormer at opera.com Thu Aug 2 01:14:41 2007 From: gormer at opera.com (Gorm Haug Eriksen) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:14:41 +0200 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Reminder: Kick off meeting for the OOA Mobile TaskForce In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Here is the transcript from IRC. Cheers, - Gorm On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:06:41 +0200, Rotan Hanrahan wrote: > Just to note that I used http://java.freenode.net/ as an interface to > the IRC channel on today's call, on account of my firewall preventing me > using my normal IRC client. > > > Might be useful for future meetings. > > > Unfortunately I can't see how to copy/paste the transcript. > > > ---Rotan. > > > > [...] > -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: 20070801-OpenAjax-Kick_Off_Meeting-IRCLOG.txt Url: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070802/14971dc1/attachment.txt From jferrai at us.ibm.com Thu Aug 2 11:09:34 2007 From: jferrai at us.ibm.com (Jon Ferraiolo) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:09:34 -0700 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Minutes from yesterday's kick-off phone call 2007-08-01 Message-ID: Hi everyone, Thanks for attending the meeting. We made remarkable progress in our first hour! Minutes are below. The minutes are also stored on our wiki (see the URL below). Jon Mobile Minutes 2007-08-01 URL: http://www.openajax.org/member/wiki/IDE_Minutes_2007-08-02 Attendees Rhys Lewis - chair Jon Ferraiolo David Oliver Krishna Sankar Paddy Byers - Aplix Charles McCathieNevile (on IRC only because of Skype problems) Gorm Haug Eriksen (on IRC only because of Skype problems) Rotan Hanrahan Andrew Sledd - Ikivo Original agenda Agenda Review - Jon Purpose of the OOA Mobile Ajax Discussions in OOA to Date Things the Mobile Taskforce Might Pursue - Rhys Initial Discussion about the list of mobile-related activites that OOA might pursue White paper written in collaboration with the OOA marketing group characterise the state of the support for Ajax on mobile today considerations for developers thinking of using mobile Ajax today in particular differences in UI capabilities on mobile devices supporting devices that are not top-end mobiles Survey of support for Ajax in the mobile world Request information from OOA members Suitable process Widgets Device APIs that might be used by Ajax applications for example, W3C DCCI Roundtable - All Attendee introductions and expressions of interest in activities Items just discussed and/or additional ideas Any other business? Wrap up Minutes (copy/paste from IRC log) 16:18 Joining chat room... Started talking in oaa-mobile on onsdag 01.08.2007 16:18:43 simmons.freenode.net sets mode +n simmons.freenode.net sets mode +s: room is now secret #oaa-mobile [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup 16:52 -> ferraiolo has joined oaa-mobile 16:54 -> Rhys has joined oaa-mobile Rhys hi jon 16:56 -> chaals has joined oaa-mobile chaals morning all 16:57 chaals (err, sort of...) Rhys waves to chaals, even though it's evening here chaals Morning Jon. chaals thinks it is afternoon. chaals to be precise, I had to interrupt my post-prandial siesta... 16:59 chaals but then Spanish people happily make appointments for 8 or 9 in the "afternoon" 17:01 Rhys asks Chaals whether he is planning to joint the call? 17:02 ferraiolo chaals are you in spain, norway, australia, or ... chaals Spain. Was planning to join, but Skype won't let me call the number... 17:04 -> Rotan has joined oaa-mobile -> asledd has joined oaa-mobile chaals not sure why. Either number... chaals waves to Rotan and Andy Rotan waves back! asledd Andy waves back too! 17:05 asledd been a while. Hope yall are well. 17:06 asledd asks if there is a dail in number that is supported by Skype? chaals apparently not. chaals gorme is here Rhys Rhys waves to Gorme 17:07 gorme waves back chaals wonders if we have everyone on Skype (and could therefore skip the phone bridge...) 17:08 Rhys We're about to start. We'll try and capture things through IRC for those who can't access the bridge asledd dropped off a bit earlier than expected 17:09 Rhys http://www.openajax.org/member/wiki/Mobile_TF#Next_meeting ferraiolo Rhys says: ferraiolo Agenda is in email and on wiki page for task force ferraiolo 3 or 4 items on the agenda 17:10 ferraiolo First, ask Jon to do a review about OpenAjax objectives and some of the history ferraiolo Then, Rhys will go through some of the items we might pursue ferraiolo Then a roundtable session for people to discuss their interests, what they would like to see task force to do 17:12 Rhys Jon: Alliance is promoting use of Ajax. We have a clear definition. Web applications running in HTML browsers using Javascript as programming language Rhys - using features native to the browser without plugins Rhys - in modern browsers means HTML, CSS, Javascript, xmlhttprequest, svg ... 17:13 Rhys - mission is to promote the set of Ajax technologies. Not promoting Java, for example. Rotan Note that some things are drifting outside the browser, such as Widgets. But basically the same operational environment as typical Ajax. Rhys - so in mobile devices, it's the same sort of story, with the same set of technologies 17:14 Rhys Jon - agrees with Rotan's point and notes that there is active discussion about widgets that use open technologies based on the browser within OOA right now Rhys - the difference is only the container. OOA is likely to pursue that as within scope. Widgets on mobile devices are also likely to come within scope 17:15 chaals [Is anyone following the work in W3C WAF group - which is about trying to get a container standard? At least Nokia and Opera are involved already there too] Rhys Jon - Process issues. Process starts with members agreement. This covers the steering committee and the working groups. WGs are able to publish specifications. 17:16 Rhys - here we are in a taskforce, which is distinct from a working group. It's a precursor for deciding whether or not to launch a working group Rhys - TF might recommend formation of a formal working group Rhys - TF might pursue new activities in existing working groups chaals [For widgets I would suggest that we remain a TF and just gather comments for the existing W3C group] Rhys TF- might decide that there is no further work for it and it disbands 17:17 Rhys - TF normally last 6 months or so Rhys - mission is to make a recommendation for formal work. It doesn't publish specifications Rhys - TF could work on specifications, but can't be ratified until it goes through a WG process 17:18 Rhys - We've had lots of discussion about mobile ajax over the last year. We had a session at the last F2F in March, and previously last October Rhys - also discussion with W3C and internal discussion 17:19 Rhys - meeting organised by Vodafone at 3GSM too. Opera presented last October advocating a single web vision with only one version of Ajax that supports both desktop and mobile Rhys - sentiment was that the vision makes sense to the ajax community. Good to try and prevent fragmentation 17:20 Rhys - leadership has been around embracing a one web approach Rhys - there have been significant announcements including Opera, Nokia S60, Nokia Widgets, Apple iPhone... 17:21 Rhys - the Nokia widgets are like Apple dashboard but for mobile Rhys Jon invites questions or comments 17:22 Rhys Rotan One comment is regarding the one web or one version of ajax. It gives the impression that a single solution might work across all devices Rhys - our experience in the mobile web is that any solution needs to be aware of device characteristics, like screen sizes, 17:23 Rhys - perhaps one aspect of the task force might be to enable ajax to take account of device characteristics Rhys Jon - I agree. We should take the same baseline for the browser, but should take into account the specfics associated with mobile devices 17:24 Rhys - this includes limitations in the devices, but also additional capabilities that such devices may bring Rhys - could include integration with messaging and battery state etc. 17:25 Rhys Rotan - existing ajax implementations tend to have conditional logic within the code to take account of differences between browsers. Won't scale to the mobile space Rhys - Hopes that design principles might be one of the outcomes of the group chaals [(nor do we want to ship lots of case statements...)] Rhys Andrew - hopes that we might also be able to get commonality across the various vendors involved 17:26 Rhys Jon - I agree, and indeed we've been trying to address this in the desktop space. Maybe it is a necessary thing and we need to get momentum Rhys Andy - would hope its a central tennet even though it might be like chasing windmills! 17:27 asledd [and btw Andrew is Andy is Andrew Sledd from Ikivo] ferraiolo OK, Jon has given background and issues about directions. Now let's talk about things we might pursue and try to achieve ferraiolo (Above is from Rhys) 17:28 ferraiolo Rhys goes through list of possible activities to pursue. Basically 4 ferraiolo #1: A white paper covering the current state of the art ferraiolo #2: A survey of the state of Ajax support in the mobile world 17:29 ferraiolo #3: What we might do about mobile widgets ferraiolo #4: Device APIs ferraiolo Let's look at each in turn ferraiolo White paper ferraiolo This is a TF, not a WG, so standardizing isn't in first period of work 17:30 ferraiolo At W3C, there are XGs that work on background things that might turn into WGs ferraiolo White paper could be developed by Mobile TF and then published by Marketing WG 17:31 ferraiolo Key thoughts about white paper - characterize status of Ajax on mobile devices today, it is available, there are apps, even though not complete as desktop, but possible to useful things even though not a complete implementation of major toolkits 17:32 ferraiolo Also in scope of white paper, something like best practices, but at least considerations about things you need to do, such as device input restrictions, screen size, and resource constraints ferraiolo Lots of desktop folks won't be as aware of these issues as those of us in the mobile industry ferraiolo The idea of a white paper got a lot of support at F2F in March in NY ferraiolo Survey 17:33 ferraiolo This is an attempt to garner people's views of the state of mobile ajax today ferraiolo Capabilities of devices, how the networks work ferraiolo Would need a process for gathering this information Rotan [So who are the audience for the White Paper? Developers? Web-based solution designers? Ajax implementors? Device manufacturers? Others? All of the above?] 17:34 ferraiolo Issues about public vs private in terms of gathering this sort of informatoin 17:35 ferraiolo Rhys responds to Rotan: from my point of view, towards people who are thinking of using Ajax on mobile devices today ferraiolo Hesitate to tell device manufacturers how to implement Ajax 17:36 ferraiolo For people building applications. Confirmation about that it is possible and here are issues you need to face. ferraiolo Krishna: Need to talk about challenges facing developers ferraiolo Rhys: Yes, maybe we need another line item 17:37 Rotan [Much like the "Challenges" doc that the DIWG wrote?:)] 17:38 ferraiolo Jon: Discussion now or wait until after we review the four items? ferraiolo Rhys: Because of time, let's finish agenda, then do roundtable ferraiolo Rhys: Widgets ferraiolo As Rotan pointed out, there is a need for apps to know about device characteristics and environment in which they run 17:39 Rotan DCCI, OMA DPE, DDR etc... ferraiolo Rhys: Also, APIs, where W3C has some efforts related ferraiolo Rhys: Now, roundtable, with brief introduction 17:40 ferraiolo Rhys: I'm CTO of Volantis, In content adaptation business for mobile devices. Use Ajax already for some of our products, but based on cut-down variants of underlying libraries, to create interesting interactive applications on mobile devcies ferraiolo Rhys: Also involved in W3C, so I am interested in synergy between W3C and OpenAjax to make Web technologies more successful 17:41 ferraiolo Andrew Sledd: I work for Ikivo. We do SVG-based products, primarily SVG players. We have some applications using Ajax-type technologies such as Mobile TV using dynamic data. chaals [Chaals: I am chief Standards guy at Opera - the browser company. We have Ajax on an increasing number of mobile and other non-desktop devices, as well as browsers on lots of low-end feature phones. I am also involved in W3C - chair of WebAPI, member of various groups in MWI and elsewhere] 17:42 ferraiolo Andy: We are interested in OpenAjax in mobile, but also beyond mobile. ferraiolo Andy: Look forward to contribute in the future 17:43 ferraiolo Andy: In terms of 4 proposed tasks, we look forward to refining those items. I like to look at Ajax as a colleciton of technologies, but browser as predominant application of these technologies. Thus, widgets also. ferraiolo -- andy leaves -- asledd thanks the group and appologizes for having to depart early. ferraiolo Rotan: CIO of Mobile Aware and chair of device description working group 17:44 Rhys s/CIO/CIA/ ferraiolo Looking for adaptation moving over to embrace Ajax, moving content space into Ajax <- asledd has disconnected (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) ferraiolo Paddy: Aplix is from Java, best known for JVM, but in Japan also work with carriers and mfgers on projects 17:45 ferraiolo How can we help create a same kind of environment for Ajax as we have for Java. In particular, enabling access to device features on mobile ferraiolo Probably single biggest barrier to having web applications from where java apps live today. 17:46 ferraiolo Secondly, looking for something to take advantage of Java infrastructure that exists today. ferraiolo So, interested in device apis in general and in particular towards browser environment ferraiolo Happy with the proposed tasks for tf. Hard part is how effective tf can be in promoting and communicating. 17:47 ferraiolo Rhys: Feeling is that it is a bit early to pursue standards, but maybe will pursue later. ferraiolo Rhys: At w3C, we have ubiquitous web working group. Has synergy with your interests. Particularly, access to device features and device characteristics. 17:48 Rotan See - http://www.w3.org/2007/uwa/ ferraiolo David Oliver: With IBM software, particularly lotus, mainly java, but now getting into ajax via lotus connections and looking into mobile area and what technology space ferraiolo David: Comfortable with proposed takss. 17:49 ferraiolo Shankar: CISCO. Have worked at W3C and Web Services. Thinking about applications issues such as tagging and location. Interested in device apis for Ajax. ferraiolo Had a good talk with Jon yesterday about MSA architecture from Java. Maybe some synergy there. ferraiolo Think we are on the right track. Need to understand both challenges and opportunities. 17:50 ferraiolo Good to develop frameworks and standardized APIs. 17:51 Rhys asks chaals if he could say something about his interests in the task force and whether or not the items in the agenda are appropriate for the TF to work on 17:52 chaals [currently I am interested in seeing the TF continue to maintain the goal of working within the framework of the web at large, and not in isolation. So far so good.] ferraiolo Paddy: What happens from now? chaals asks gorme to introduce himself too 17:53 ferraiolo Rhys: What we have heard today is that line items in the agenda are in line with what people are interested in pursuing. ferraiolo Rhys: I would propose that we start by trying to pull together the white paper. 17:54 ferraiolo Rhys: We can draft a ToC and review and then ask people to review materials chaals [We worked on integrating with device capabilities for some years now, using javascript as the "glue", in a product originally called Opera Platform] 17:55 chaals notes thta Gorm seems to have been called away 17:56 Rhys Jon - the suggestion for the white paper sounds good. The one thing that I'm surprised at is that it looks as though we might be able to get traction on the device APIs area. chaals [Gorm Eriksen is a developer at Opera, who works on Web applications, widgets in various products, and similar stuff] Rhys - seems to be a critical mass of interest and some prior art. So maybe we should work on the white paper and the use cases and requirements for the device APIs. 17:57 Rhys Rotan - in terms of device APIs we might want to consider categorising them. Some give access to device capabilities, some give ability to interact with device features 17:58 Rotan Device API on the server: to discover capabilities and state. On the device: to discover the capabilities and state, and to interact with device resources. Rhys Jon - so we should maybe categorise as we survey what is going on in the industry. I understand that W3C has device characteristics effort, and we should stay clear of that, but maybe in other areas we could take leadership Rotan APIs being driven by different standards groups: W3C, OMA etc. Rhys Paddy - in the work that we are looking at, we recognise that bits of api definition are going on in different groups 17:59 Rhys - we're looking at enabling layers to allow that technology to be used Rhys - also the infrastructure to allow such apis to be used in a way agnostic to the underlying capabilities 18:00 Rhys - seems like a higher level effort that would provide a framework to allow such apis to be used would be useful Rhys Krishna - would we also need bindings for javascript? 18:01 Rhys Paddy - in exactly the same way that with the hub it's possible to manage contention, these apis are the same. Web applications should be able to express dependencies in a similar way <- chaals has disconnected (Remote closed the connection) gorme Yes. As Chaals said, I'm developer in the Web Application team also member of W3C WebAPI Rhys Paddy - I believe that there is a group of people with a real desire to move on the device APIs sooner rather than later -> chaals has joined oaa-mobile Rotan wonders will transcript of IRC be made available? (i.e. are we working in the open?) Rhys Krishna - I agree 18:04 Rotan A wiki page of links to relevant technology would be a useful start. 18:11 <- Rhys has disconnected <- Rotan has disconnected ("Java user signed off") <- ferraiolo has disconnected 00:14 <- chaals has disconnected (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070802/25696bca/attachment-0001.html From jferrai at us.ibm.com Thu Aug 2 17:44:52 2007 From: jferrai at us.ibm.com (Jon Ferraiolo) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 17:44:52 -0700 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] First steps towards investigating mobile device APIs area Message-ID: Hello Mobile Ajax TF, Thanks to Krishna Sankar of Cisco, we have taken our first steps towards our investigation of what OpenAjax might do about mobile device APIs. Those first steps consisted of creating a new wiki page (http://www.openajax.org/member/wiki/Mobile_Device_APIs) and putting an outline on the page. Everyone with interest in the area of mobile device APIs is encouraged to modify the outline, fill in the content, and create subordinate wiki pages in order to capture information and make proposals about how OpenAjax Alliance might help the industry in this area. Krishna says he might start work soon on the section titled "meta frameworks". I'd like to make a special request for people who are knowledgeable about other industry initiatives in this area to add information to the wiki about these other initiatives. For example, we know that W3C is doing some related work, so it would be great if someone familiar with that work could provide an executive summary for our wiki page. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070802/082ff531/attachment.html From ksankar at cisco.com Thu Aug 2 19:39:16 2007 From: ksankar at cisco.com (Krishna Sankar (ksankar)) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 19:39:16 -0700 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] First steps towards investigating mobile deviceAPIs area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9FA16888AD1BF64ABCE6C2532CCEB98A02C8BD3A@xmb-sjc-219.amer.cisco.com> Thanks Jon. Couple of thoughts (I will update the Wiki as well) a) One possible candidate for the metaframework is a very lite version of the OSGi http://www.osgi.org/osgi_technology/index.asp?section=2#Framework. b) I also was planning on the J2ME MSA analysis. As we all know the MSA is an aggregation of multiple JSRs. A table showing the JSRs involved, their relevance (positive or negative) to our world of device APIs would be good. (Jon suggested this and I think it is a good start) c) As Jon was saying, we also need to do this with the relevant work in W3C. This I have no clue. Cheers ________________________________ From: mobile-bounces at openajax.org [mailto:mobile-bounces at openajax.org] On Behalf Of Jon Ferraiolo Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:45 PM To: mobile at openajax.org Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] First steps towards investigating mobile deviceAPIs area Hello Mobile Ajax TF, Thanks to Krishna Sankar of Cisco, we have taken our first steps towards our investigation of what OpenAjax might do about mobile device APIs. Those first steps consisted of creating a new wiki page (http://www.openajax.org/member/wiki/Mobile_Device_APIs) and putting an outline on the page. Everyone with interest in the area of mobile device APIs is encouraged to modify the outline, fill in the content, and create subordinate wiki pages in order to capture information and make proposals about how OpenAjax Alliance might help the industry in this area. Krishna says he might start work soon on the section titled "meta frameworks". I'd like to make a special request for people who are knowledgeable about other industry initiatives in this area to add information to the wiki about these other initiatives. For example, we know that W3C is doing some related work, so it would be great if someone familiar with that work could provide an executive summary for our wiki page. Jon From jferrai at us.ibm.com Fri Aug 3 07:39:17 2007 From: jferrai at us.ibm.com (Jon Ferraiolo) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 07:39:17 -0700 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Metaframework and OSGi In-Reply-To: <9FA16888AD1BF64ABCE6C2532CCEB98A02C8BD3A@xmb-sjc-219.amer.cisco.com> Message-ID: Hi Krishna, Yes, let's pursue (b) and (c), but I have a question about (a). When I first saw your outline, I didn't understand what you meant by "metaframework" and now I am a bit confused by the idea of a lite version of OSGi. My understanding of OSGi is that it is a Java mechanism for managing Java plugins, bundles of plugins, dependencies and versioning. I'm not sure how that relates to Ajax, which of course uses JavaScript and is independent of Java. Are you thinking that there will be a JavaScript library that provides services for JavaScript similar to what OSGi provides for similar things to what OSGi provides for Java? If so, why would we need such a library? I am just trying to understand what the role is for a metaframework. I will mention that early versions of the OpenAjax Hub had a lightweight modularization and dynamic loading feature that used a similar technique to what is in script.a.culous, but we removed that feature from OpenAjax Hub 1.0 because we had managed to shrink the Hub so small (<3K after compaction) that there was no point in keeping the dynamic module-loading code. Jon Jon Ferraiolo Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-926-5865 "Krishna Sankar \(ksankar\)" "OpenAjax Alliance discussion list Sent by: on Mobile Ajax" mobile-bounces at op enajax.org cc Subject 08/02/2007 07:39 Re: [OpenAjaxMobile] First steps PM towards investigating mobile deviceAPIs area Please respond to OpenAjax Alliance discussion list on Mobile Ajax Thanks Jon. Couple of thoughts (I will update the Wiki as well) a) One possible candidate for the metaframework is a very lite version of the OSGi http://www.osgi.org/osgi_technology/index.asp?section=2#Framework. b) I also was planning on the J2ME MSA analysis. As we all know the MSA is an aggregation of multiple JSRs. A table showing the JSRs involved, their relevance (positive or negative) to our world of device APIs would be good. (Jon suggested this and I think it is a good start) c) As Jon was saying, we also need to do this with the relevant work in W3C. This I have no clue. Cheers ________________________________ From: mobile-bounces at openajax.org [mailto:mobile-bounces at openajax.org] On Behalf Of Jon Ferraiolo Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:45 PM To: mobile at openajax.org Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] First steps towards investigating mobile deviceAPIs area Hello Mobile Ajax TF, Thanks to Krishna Sankar of Cisco, we have taken our first steps towards our investigation of what OpenAjax might do about mobile device APIs. Those first steps consisted of creating a new wiki page (http://www.openajax.org/member/wiki/Mobile_Device_APIs) and putting an outline on the page. Everyone with interest in the area of mobile device APIs is encouraged to modify the outline, fill in the content, and create subordinate wiki pages in order to capture information and make proposals about how OpenAjax Alliance might help the industry in this area. Krishna says he might start work soon on the section titled "meta frameworks". I'd like to make a special request for people who are knowledgeable about other industry initiatives in this area to add information to the wiki about these other initiatives. For example, we know that W3C is doing some related work, so it would be great if someone familiar with that work could provide an executive summary for our wiki page. Jon _______________________________________________ mobile mailing list mobile at openajax.org http://openajax.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070803/83cf2491/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: graycol.gif Type: image/gif Size: 105 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070803/83cf2491/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pic26232.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1255 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070803/83cf2491/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ecblank.gif Type: image/gif Size: 45 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070803/83cf2491/attachment-0002.gif From louenas.hamdi at sap.com Fri Aug 3 08:12:09 2007 From: louenas.hamdi at sap.com (Hamdi, Louenas) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:12:09 -0400 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Metaframework and OSGi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6644EC646571D04DA95850E3D803903A03BB63F3@usphle12.phl.sap.corp> Hello all, I have been using OSGi for the last three year and I've been using it during the course of these 10 last months in combination with Ajax and the Hub. OSGi is a Java technology that is component based (Java bundles) and service oriented. among other services, OSGi offers Http service which at the end relies on a Served engine. OSGi is the most lightweight (<1 meg) Java technology I know that offers Http service to be eventually used by the JavaScript running on a mobile browser. the drawback of OSGi is that at minimum it needs a Java runtime that is equivalent to CDC. only high-end devices (e.g. Nokia N800) offer such environment. Lately there has been some native mobile servers that started to appear e.g. http://mymobilesite.net/ from Nokia again. I think that what OpenAjax could eventually do is to try defining some standard Http interfaces that these mobile servers could implement in what ever technology for exposing in a standard Http interfaces for GPS, PIM, Connection Status, etc. cheers, Louenas ________________________________ From: mobile-bounces at openajax.org [mailto:mobile-bounces at openajax.org] On Behalf Of Jon Ferraiolo Sent: Friday, Aug 03, 2007 10:39 AM To: mobile at openajax.org Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Metaframework and OSGi Hi Krishna, Yes, let's pursue (b) and (c), but I have a question about (a). When I first saw your outline, I didn't understand what you meant by "metaframework" and now I am a bit confused by the idea of a lite version of OSGi. My understanding of OSGi is that it is a Java mechanism for managing Java plugins, bundles of plugins, dependencies and versioning. I'm not sure how that relates to Ajax, which of course uses JavaScript and is independent of Java. Are you thinking that there will be a JavaScript library that provides services for JavaScript similar to what OSGi provides for similar things to what OSGi provides for Java? If so, why would we need such a library? I am just trying to understand what the role is for a metaframework. I will mention that early versions of the OpenAjax Hub had a lightweight modularization and dynamic loading feature that used a similar technique to what is in script.a.culous, but we removed that feature from OpenAjax Hub 1.0 because we had managed to shrink the Hub so small (<3K after compaction) that there was no point in keeping the dynamic module-loading code. Jon Jon Ferraiolo Web Architect, Emerging Technologies IBM, Menlo Park, CA Mobile: +1-650-926-5865 "Krishna Sankar \(ksankar\)" "Krishna Sankar \(ksankar\)" Sent by: mobile-bounces at openajax.org 08/02/2007 07:39 PM Please respond to OpenAjax Alliance discussion list on Mobile Ajax To "OpenAjax Alliance discussion list on Mobile Ajax" cc Subject Re: [OpenAjaxMobile] First steps towards investigating mobile deviceAPIs area Thanks Jon. Couple of thoughts (I will update the Wiki as well) a) One possible candidate for the metaframework is a very lite version of the OSGi http://www.osgi.org/osgi_technology/index.asp?section=2#Framework. b) I also was planning on the J2ME MSA analysis. As we all know the MSA is an aggregation of multiple JSRs. A table showing the JSRs involved, their relevance (positive or negative) to our world of device APIs would be good. (Jon suggested this and I think it is a good start) c) As Jon was saying, we also need to do this with the relevant work in W3C. This I have no clue. Cheers ________________________________ From: mobile-bounces at openajax.org [mailto:mobile-bounces at openajax.org] On Behalf Of Jon Ferraiolo Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:45 PM To: mobile at openajax.org Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] First steps towards investigating mobile deviceAPIs area Hello Mobile Ajax TF, Thanks to Krishna Sankar of Cisco, we have taken our first steps towards our investigation of what OpenAjax might do about mobile device APIs. Those first steps consisted of creating a new wiki page (http://www.openajax.org/member/wiki/Mobile_Device_APIs) and putting an outline on the page. Everyone with interest in the area of mobile device APIs is encouraged to modify the outline, fill in the content, and create subordinate wiki pages in order to capture information and make proposals about how OpenAjax Alliance might help the industry in this area. Krishna says he might start work soon on the section titled "meta frameworks". I'd like to make a special request for people who are knowledgeable about other industry initiatives in this area to add information to the wiki about these other initiatives. For example, we know that W3C is doing some related work, so it would be great if someone familiar with that work could provide an executive summary for our wiki page. Jon _______________________________________________ mobile mailing list mobile at openajax.org http://openajax.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070803/f06afa95/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 105 bytes Desc: graycol.gif Url : http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070803/f06afa95/attachment-0002.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 45 bytes Desc: ecblank.gif Url : http://openajax.org/pipermail/mobile/attachments/20070803/f06afa95/attachment-0003.gif From jferrai at us.ibm.com Fri Aug 3 09:04:36 2007 From: jferrai at us.ibm.com (Jon Ferraiolo) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 09:04:36 -0700 Subject: [OpenAjaxMobile] Metaframework and OSGi In-Reply-To: <6644EC646571D04DA95850E3D803903A03BB63F3@usphle12.phl.sap.corp> Message-ID: Hi Louenas, Thanks for the information. I'm sure this is obvious, but at OpenAjax our mission is to help developers be successful with HTML+JavaScript+... using features that are native to the browser without plugins, which translates into getting the job done without Java, Flash, Silverlight or any other extensions to the browser. (See http://www.openajax.org/whitepapers/Introducing%20Ajax%20and%20OpenAjax.html#What_is_Ajax) When you say "try defining some standard Http interfaces", can you go a bit further about what you have in mind? Desktop browsers today already support the ability to load a URL (via a hyperlink which translates into an HTTP GET) and to post data to a URL (typically leveraging XMLHttpRequest, but can also be done via